BMW versus Alfa Romeo - A luta de Titãs do mundo automóvel.

Alfa ou BMW? Qual o melhor?

  • Alfa: Beauty is not enough!

    Votos: 9 6.0%
  • BMW: The Ultimate Driving Machine!

    Votos: 140 94.0%

  • Total de votantes
    149

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
BMW versus Alfa Romeo - A luta de Titãs do mundo automóvel.

QUAL É A SUA OPINIÃO?

O fórum do nosso "Portal dos Clássicos" cada vez mais e melhor frequentado, cresce a olhos vistos, entre os amantes verdadeiros dos automóveis clássicos que tanta paixão despertam...

Mas, decidi dar-lhe um "SAL" especial, condimentando-o como deve ser !:D :p

A QUESTÃO interminável e que tem despoletado paixões que movem montanhas, acabando por ser realmente o que se apelida de PAIXÃO por uma MARCA, pela sua história, características dos veículos produzidos; inovação e audácia; design; fiabilidade; qualidade de construção; performance e acima de tudo algo que nos dê prazer na condução...


Declaro aberto o tópico!:D :D

Venham daí as vossas opiniões sobre este SEMPRE polémico assunto, entre duas míticas marcas, com tão grandes pergaminhos...

Tenho ouvido algo no género:

"A ALFA ROMEO começa onde a BMW acaba" ;)

" A BMW começa onde a ALFA Romeo acaba" ;)

Importa-se de repetir? :D

NOTA: Aguardam-se opiniões de apaixonados pelas marcas em questão e de amantes dos clássicos em geral. Sem violência, por favor! :D :D
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
Bem...

Eu para começar penso que serei um pouco suspeito! :D :D :D

Vou esperar pelas vossas opiniões.

Obrigado.
 
Bem acho que não ha duvidas neste assunto. A Alfa romeo é claramente superior e ao longo da sua historia fabricou dos carros mais procurados e cobiçados do mundo.

A nivel desportivo nem vale a pena comparar, a BMW so teve practicamente sucesso apartir dos anos 70 nos turismos, e uma um vitoria nas 1000 milhas de 1940, (com a Europa em guerra e o regime Nazi dominante, não é de estranhar...). A Alfa foi campeã de GP durante vários anos, venceu Le Mans e as 1000 milhas diversas vezes.
A BMW por acaso venceu Le Mans, mas foi na era moderna, (1999), depois de todos os principais concorrentes desistirem.:D

A BMW só começou a competir, no mercado, directamente com a A.R. nos anos 60 com a série 02, mas mesmo assim a serie GT da Alfa era claramente superior a nivel tecnologico, design, etc...

Quanto a clássicos, nenhum BMW, incluindo o 327 ou 328, chega aos calcanhares de por ex. um alfa 8C 2.9. O BMW 0 507, muitas vezes visto como um dos mais emblematicos BMW's não passou de um grande fracasso comercial, e tambem técnico.
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
Amigo Fábio;

Eu todos os dias aprendo e todos os dias tenho dúvidas...:D :D ;)

Mas hoje, infelizmente não tenho tempo para responder....:D

Mas isto está a cada vez melhor! ;)

Abraço
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
Pedro Miguel Henriques disse:
Oh Marco colocas-me numa posição difícil... como hei-de responder?

Tenho 3 BMW e 3 Alfas...

Cumps.

Pedro Henriques

A tua consciência dirá...:D ;)

Eu também nunca fui nem serei fundamentalista em nada da Vida. Tenho um Carocha que gosto tanto quanto a BMW, por motivos e características diferentes. Mas agradam-me na mesma medida, por razões distintas.

Mas existe quem deseje obter a mesma velocidade num Carocha como num BMW M3!!:D Simplesmente não foi concebido para tal!:feliz: Mas com ele efectuo passeios em família, e consigo ver a paisagem...:D :feliz:

No BMW E30 320iS , por exemplo não aspiro a efectuar um passeio, em que dê primazia à bonita paisagem Madeirense!:D :D Decerto que os engenheiros da BMW. Ag. ao conceberem tão soberba máquina, não foi a pensar em utilizá-lo nas compras do Modelo! ;)

Existem coisas na vida que não são comparáveis, porque pura e simplesmente na sua concepção, tiveram objectivos de utilização e contexto hstórico diferentes.

Valem por aquilo que são e não porque são superiores ou inferiores ao que quer que seja.

cump.
 

Ricardo Neiva

Ricardo Neiva
=00=
Uma razão para votar BMW!!!
060218_wtcc-bmw-&-alfa.jpg
 

Rui Rego

bmw2002t
Vai ser uma luta saudável, é como custumo dizer os Alfas são carros fantasticos de admirar mas no fundo no fundo nós sabemos que eles por dentro estao-se a desfazer em ferrugem,:D :D , piadas à parte , tanto a BMW como a Alfa Romeo são carros fantasticos, gosto muito do design de alguns Alfas , de conduzir outros , mas comprar um Alfa não está nos meus planos.Prefiro de longe um BMW, conduzir o meu '02 com 37 anos e sentir o conforto e a condução que ele permite em relação a outros carros mais modernos, o simples rolar na calçada e não ouvir ruidos de suspenção e tablier a chocalhar como ouço nos carros que custumo andar, faz-me pensar que isto deve ser mesmo bom.

Para saber qual dos dois é melhor, só quem os tem é que pode falar do que eles são capazes, os carros foram concebidos para agradar os conductores e até agora tanto a BMW como a Alfa têm feito um bom trabalho e cumprido com esse objectivo.
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
A BMW é "só" um exemplo de planeamento metódico, organização e aposta em produtos de grande qualidade...

Mas não podemos esquecer que por duas vezes ( após cada guerra mundial ) renasceu das cinzas...apostando sempre em crescer, mas com qualidade.

Um assunto que mais tarde será, decerto, desenvolvido...

Uma das marcas automóveis mais desejadas de sempre.

Coração, mas com razão.

Potência mas com segurança.
 

Luis Silveira

Clássico
Quanto à qualidade de construção da BMW não tenho grandes dúvidas.A nível desportivo e de "performance" já não tenho muitas certezas,até pode ser ignorância minha .Atiro aqui uma acha para a fogueira.
Abraços
Luis
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
Caro Luís Silveira;

Estava eu a ultimar mais um relatório, quando reparo neste novo post...

Será que a BMW não tem palmarés desportivo nenhum? :D

Nelson Piquet? Cecotto? Ravaglia? Diz-lhe alguma coisa? :D :D

Bem, mas agora não posso "debruçar-me" :D sobre o assunto...Mas lá chegaremos...


abraço.
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
BMW Manufacturer Profile & Rally History
BMW Home Country: Germany

It somehow seems tempting to compare BMW’s rally heroics to those of Alfa Romeo. Both makes had their rally programs always overshadowed by their love to touring car racing, both makes came into rallying at roughly the same time and with cars of similar character and abilities. Although the Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA was a coupé compared to the BMW 02-series that was more a sporty saloon car. Both these projects were as well inspired by touring car programs.

But in order, the BMW 1800tisa (comparable to the 5-series in modern times) was a hugely successful touring car and it looked far from dull on rally stages as well. The big 2800CS coupé was also tried in rallying, but both these cars were semi works efforts at best. It has to be noted though, that none other than Rauno Aaltonen had an extensive ERC program in 1972 using the 2800CS M-AH 1072 & M-AH 1079. When the 02-series (comparable to the 3-series of modern times) came, it was smaller and lighter than the 1800 and that it had smaller engines at first didn’t seem to matter for rallying. We soon found many 1502 and 1602 models with engines of a size according to the model name. But then came the 2002tii, which not only was smaller than the 1800tisa, but as implemented by the model names had a bigger, more powerful engine. It was that time that even BMW Motorsport found interest in rallying as the car’s successes could no longer be ignored. The most famous drivers of works supported BMW 2002 were Tony Fall, Achim Warmbold and occasionally even Björn Waldegaard. The biggest success was when Achim Warmbold won the WRC event Austrian Alpine in 1973. Actually as famous was the BMW victory in Portugal 1972, although this was before the WRC was created.

Interestingly the BMW 2002 was as well the first road car that explored Turbo engines, but unfortunately the 2002 Turbo came at a time (late 1973) when the big oil crisis broke out in Europe and we can’t find records of this car ever being rallied, leaving the first turbo laurels to Saab. Again similar to Alfa Romeo, from here BMW became a loved, mainly French inspired privateer effort in rallying. When the 3-series came out and the 320 became a hugely successul touring car, Timo Mäkinen was found in a French importer 320 in the Rallye Monte Carlo and Ingvar Carlsson used a 320 and later the bigger engined 323i in the Swedish Rally. It was actually the German tuner Hartge to prepare a big 633CSi MZG-EA 67 for Jean-Claude Andruet in French rallies while one of the most spectacular rally cars ever was created by French lunatic Hughes de Chaunac, when he turned the M1 into a rally car. The next big story about BMW in rallying came when Prodrive got involved with a BMW touring car program with the M3 – a very different top version to the 3-series. Prodrive tried to rally it and soon showed the incredible quality of this car: designed mainly with Irish, French and Belgian tarmac rallies in mind, the BMW M3 turned a winner on the first WRC event it ever competed in, the Tour de Corse 1987! For the next 3-4 years the M3 was a well loved car for exactly these Irish (Bertie Fisher, Austin McHale), French (Bernard Beguin, Francois Chatriot) and Belgian (Marc Duez) championships, winning many titles. But in WRC terms without turbo and 4x4 it soon struggled to keep up with the ever more evolving Lancia Delta.

COLOURS & TYRES:

BMW is a car manufacturer with a really strong identification, whithout continously changing their minds as so many other, mainly Japanese brands seem to do. BMW's house colours always were a combination of blue, purple & red stripes on white ground. However there was one exception and that was right on their most official program, the works 2002, as Aaltonen's 2800CS, were white cars with a light blue top. With future projects being all privateer efforts, sponsorship came into the frame. Hartge, who ran the M3, Carlsson's 320 & 323i, as well as the 633CSi used their own house colours being two shades of blue on white. Hughes de Chaunac’s M1 was sponsored by Rothmans as well as French oil company Motul and featured a white and red colour scheme (unusually for Rothmans no blue). This was very similar indeed to Prodrive’s M3 from 1988 onwards with Bastos and Motul sponsorship, however when they won the Tour de Corse in 1987 they were in full Rothmans colours. One exception is Marc Duez, probably the busiest M3 driver in the WRC, who brought in Fina sponsorship. Two of the most exciting colours: In Belgian championship events Marc Duez also had phone manufacturer Alcatel sponsoring a white-grey-orange M3 and Ari Vatanen couldn’t hesitate to compete on the 1988 Rally Finland in a Prodrive M3 and this car featured writing “the milkman” – a real fun entry! In terms of tyres BMWs seemed to be on Pirelli throughout, with the 2002, the M1 and the M3. Only exception was 1987, the year they won the Tour de Corse, they were on Michelin.

REGISTRATIONS:

Indeed in the 1970s BMW was a full works operation. And as most people know, BMW is based in Bayern's capital München, which is one of the biggest cities of Germany. Such works BMW display reg plates with M as the area code, mostly followed by 2 letters and a 4-digit number. Then the big BMW operation with the BMW M3 was in the hands of Prodrive. Interestingly when Prodrive cooperated with Porsche, these cars were registered in Reading. Just like Porsche, BMW's UK importer is based in Reading. However for some reason the Prodrive BMW were usually registered in Ireland! Again the game with the 3-letter-block, 2nd & 3rd of which identify the area. Strangely these M3s were only found with area codes DZ Antrim or XI Belfast, even though both these places have far more codes. To add to head scratching, in the end 4 M3s of equal works status appeared of which 2 were registered in Northampton, 1 in Nottingham and 1 in Birmingham! When Hughes de Chaunac played with the M1 in rallying, 2 such beasts were built, he found support by BMW France and such the cars were registered in Versailles with the reg plates ending 78. This is not to be mistaken with the 54 registered car Hartge had. German MOT rules are so strict, that it is difficult to have rally cars internationally competitive. In fact most works Toyota don't have a German MOT approval stamp, are insured in the UK and may run into problems with the German police running their German plates in Germany. For Hartge, the French city Nancy "54" is just across the border and so he had some of his cars registered there. Hartge is based in Merzig, Saarland, a small German town just 5km from the French border. So as long as the German MOT did not object, Hartge cars are identified with the Merzig MZG area code before the dash. Just for a little side info, Hartge nowadays turned their attention to Mercedes tuning and changed name. Although Rolf Hartge still owns the business, non other than former Swedish rally star Ingvar Carlsson is involved in the business and gave the firm its new name.

Championship Standings List :

Yr Pos. Manufacturer Class Events

1991 8th. BMW (6pts) Group A 14
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1990
9th.
BMW (14pts)
Group A
13
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1989 7th. BMW (37pts) Group A 13
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1988
7th.
BMW (25pts)
Group A
13
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1987 8th. BMW (20pts) Group A 13
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1985
15th.
BMW (9pts)
Group B
12
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1974 12th. BMW (4pts) Open 8
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar

1973
8th.
BMW (28pts)
Open
13
Season Summary | Season Points | Events Calendar



In "BMW Rally Cars"





M

Model & Evo. (Activity)
BHP@
RPM Torque
(Nm)@
RPM Length
Width
Height Weight
(Kg/BPM
Ratio)
Trans.
(W'base)

2002tii 16V (73-0) 230/7800 240/6000 4250.1590.1390 1050 (4.6) Rwd (2500)
2002tii 8v (69-0) 195/7000 210/5500 4250.1590.1390 1050 (5.4) Rwd (2500)
3-series (E21) 320 (80-0) 185 0 4355.1610.1380 1000 (5.4) RWD (2563)
3-series (E21) 323i (81-83) 205 0 4355.1610.1380 1020 (0) RWD (2563)
325 (E30) i (86-55) 171/5800 238/4000 4325.1645.1380 1180 (6.9) RWD (2570)
325 (E30) iX (88-55) 171/5800 238/4000 4325.1645.1380 1290 (7.5) 4x4 (2570)
633CSi (E24) _ (76-77) 286/5500 340/4250 4755.1725.1365 1450 (5.1) RWD (2626)
M1 (E26) _ (82-83) 430/9000 390/7000 4360.1925.1110 1150 (2.7) Rwd (2560)
M3 (E30) _ (87-0) 295/8400 285/6500 4355.1680.1350 1025 (3.5) Rwd (2565)
 
OP
OP
Marco Pestana

Marco Pestana

MarcoSprint MarcoVW61
Eis um exemplo de uma máquina intemporal...

BMW M1
 

Anexos

  • BMW-M1_Procar_1978_800x600_wallpaper_02.jpg
    BMW-M1_Procar_1978_800x600_wallpaper_02.jpg
    55.9 KB · Vistos: 17
  • BMW-M1_Procar_1978_800x600_wallpaper_01.jpg
    BMW-M1_Procar_1978_800x600_wallpaper_01.jpg
    30.3 KB · Vistos: 21
Topo